Separation of Church and State

I have seen a lot of opinions on the separation of church and state misconceptions.

Due to the humanism being taught under the New World Order system, there are a number of people that take on a stance that might be called libertarian. Another issue I have noted is that a lot of people are running around calling themselves sovereigns. Both of these stances have a similar pattern of linear thinking. Linear thinking is regurgitative thought patterns which are acquired as a result of rote learning, mostly from books, without the ability to apply any alternate applications or external logic. Both of these ideologies have the principle of I can do what ever I want as long as I do not hurt anyone else. The question is who is to decide what hurts someone else?

These attitudes are derived from the Constitution acting as supreme law. That is to say, most of these types scream Constitution provides me my unalienable rights. One should note that the Constitution is not the Paramount law.

So, how did this come about? I believe that some of this occurrence comes from the oppressive civil law system that has been created under the Fourteenth Amendment. Another theory is subversive actions teaching people individualism so a divide and conquer effect is achieved. This is to keep people from forming communities and working together so they are then controlled by man.

This brings us to the separation of church and state. One must understand that in the original form of the constitutional system in the United States, separation of church and state meant the Federal government not having any say in what a state did in regard to a belief system; each state had its own.

So if state was unique, what set of rules governed people on a societal level? Could one run around without clothing if they thought this was proper? Again who makes the rules?

The simple answer to this is the paramount law: The law of God (the Bible).

Sorry, I do not care who you are, your moral values are derived from the law of God. If the law from the Bible is not followed people will be controlled by man. That is what we have now. A custom and usage (common law) society cannot exist without a unified belief system of morals.

p.s. do not confuse religion with the Bible.

I couldn't agree more.  I caught the end of a documentary on this issue, church v state recently, and recall the guy saying something interesting that I would love to learn more on if anyone knows any more about this.  The show said basically what LB was saying, that the federal government had no say about what the states did.  It went on to say that being of the faith actually once was a state requirement in order to be be a representative.

The home schooling convention in my city has rejected my attempt at BUYING an exhibition station for this April.

After visiting the PACinLaw site, they said it was not of interest to their participants.

We have a long way to go.

Today I passed out some NMG cards to returning vets of Iraq.

They signed up believing they are patriots but have no interest in NMG.

We have a long way to go.

George wrote on Feb 27th, 2009 at 6:15pm:


The brainwashing has been very thorough.

It is fine to live YOUR life by the laws of the Bible. But I have a problem when you try to impose those 'laws' on others. I view the Bible as a select collection of writings (by men) from the Jews and early Christians but not the Word of a supreme being and therefore not The Laws that I am forced to live by. Granted, the Bible is a good foundation to live by. But so are some of the teaching of The Buddha and others.

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This said most of what I was thinking. The bible was written by men with a purpose in mind when they wrote it. They left out a lot of books of ancient knowledge because it didn't fit into their plan of domination. That is why the Romans converted to Christianity. It was a great way to control the people. The Christian church has been doing just that ever since.Wasn't it Jefferson who wrote his own bible that contained nothing but quotes from Jesus? I believe he said something about not trusting hearsay. I was born and raised a Catholic, went to Catholic grade school, and was an altar boy so I know a little bit about organized religion.

Catching up...

People should understand that the Bible is 80% filled with information on how to stay away from the government of men.
It is still, in my estimation, the best guide to do so.

The Bible left me with a simple concept to understand. I believe if it were followed it would preclude all earthly government. LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF. AND LOVE GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART BODY AND SOUL. And in my understanding that would be MY creator. IF we were to live by these two simple precepts, and particularly the first one, who would NEED any other government? The laws that were understood by the founding fathers have their basis in reason, logic and common sense. Some of the laws in the bible do, but some don't. We do not like to have our property stolen, so we in turn would not want to steal another persons property. We do not like our person violated so in turn we would not want to violate another person. We do not want to be murdered so in turn we would not want to murder another. If we were to murder another we should expect the same in return. And person here is used in the common vernacular of one who is a living breathing sentient being. My reason logic and common sense tell me that man is "not desperately wicked" blah, blah, blah just by looking at society in general. We may BECOME that way if POWER is given to us over other men, but we don't start out that way. If no one had any power over anyone else, then no one would have it go to their head in the first place. Certain laws in the bible make no sense whatsoever. For instance, who would make a law to stone someone for starting a fire on any particular day of the year to keep warm or feed their family? Who would make a law that would have the death penalty attached for "adultery"? If the bibles laws were the "law of the land" we would have to put half the population to death or more! Man's laws are even worse! The simple test should be this...can I do what I am wanting to do without damaging someone else in their life, liberty or property? If I could then there should be no law against it. If IT WOULD damage someone else in their life, liberty or property then there should be a law against it.
Am I damaging someone else in their life, liberty or property by owning and carrying a firearm without a permit? No, then there can be no law that would be against that act. I could go on and on, but I suspect I am writing to the choir.

And I would like to recommend a book...The Enterprise of Law: Justice Without the State by Bruce L. Benson
He does an excellent job of showing that government as we think of it is actually not the norm throughout history. There are many times that man has coexisted in peace dealing with his fellow humans on a voluntary contractual basis.

who would make a law to stone someone for starting a fire on any particular day of the year to keep warm or feed their family?

You are misinterpreting that statute.  The Sabbath has a few guidelines to follow so that we keep the original intent of the Sabbath.  The "kindling a fire" precept is about "cooking"  not warming yourself or even re-heating up your meal, (remember traditional roles) the Sabbath is for all of us, wives, children, hire hands and our beasts of burden getting a day of rest and reflection to honor Yahuwah.  Therefore, we are to prepare our meals and eat leftovers so that our wives and mothers are not busting their rumps in the kitchen while the rest of us sit around being waited on.

It is a good idea, when reading a precept in the Bible that seems to make no common sense at all to do a little digging and find out what the real meaning or intent of the lawgiver (Yahuwah) was when the precept was written.  The laws of the Bible all make perfect sense.

The death penalty was there as a deter adultery, and both the man and the woman had to be caught in the act at the mouth of two or three, reliable witnesses, in order to have the "case come before the judges" and then they had to be found guilty before being put to death.  Death seems to motivate people to fly right and keep their business out of the pants or dress of anothers' spouse.

How much trouble would be be having with out of control teenagers and gangs if just one of them were found guilty of a capital offense of the Bible, and the whole town, with all the other teenagers had to stone the guilty kid to death in the town square.  Do you think the kids would straighten up and fly right pretty quick?  And here's the end result of that type of penalty:  One, kids behave and learn to act according to the customs and usages of society or all the incorrigibles are stoned either way society would no longer have tolerate any juvenile delinquents.

So let's see, men are going to first figure out from a book that was put together during the reign of Constatine by a bunch of so called scholars who got together and decided by vote which of hundreds they were going to put in the so called scripture, and here we are writing about this book to make it the "law" and then men are going to decide how to "interpret" it, and we are going to use this for our guide? HELP GOD...save me from your FOLLOWERS! Or should I say "so called" followers? I was SUCH a zealous  "believer" at one time that I even had all four of my sons circumcised on the 8th day! I would have LOVED to see "Gods law" established as the law of our nation. But then along came some guy named Thomas Paine who wrote a very interesting book called "The Age of Reason". After reading it, I came to the realization that I had been DUPED for 25 years of my life by my so called beliefs. Thus my statement of religious beliefs on my Facebook page: Religious Views:
I know that what I think I know I don't know.  I believe at this time that NATURAL law is all we need. Call it INSTINCT. Call it the "Law written on our minds". And what is that Law? LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF. And LOVE GOD with all your heart, mind body and soul.  And that "God" is the ARCHITECT or CREATOR of the UNIVERSE. The one who tells me in my heart that damaging anyone else is WRONG. That taking another property by force is WRONG. That murder is WRONG. How do I come to these obvious conclusions? With the Bible? NO. REASON, LOGIC and COMMON SENSE. I don't need the BIBLE TO TELL ME THE OBVIOUS. Would you like to be murdered? THEN MURDER NO ONE ELSE. Would YOU like to have the fruits of your labor stolen? THEN STEAL FROM NO ONE ELSE. Would you like to have your body violated by rape or slavery? Then RAPE OR ENSLAVE NO ONE ELSE. How much harder could this be? SERIOUSLY? And if YOU don't think murder is "ok" then why would you allow someone else in "your name" to go and murder by voting or supporting a so called government of MEN who are nothing but HUMAN like we are in the first place. Yet we put a badge on them and allow them to rob, rape and pillage in the name of the "state God" who is a FICTION and exists only in our minds in the first place! Anyone who doesn't understand these basic simple precepts from BIRTH may be psychopathic in nature and we may need to keep them from becoming LEADERS over us like we have now! A NATION RUN BY PSYCHOPATHS!

But seriously! I KNOW I don't need the Bible which is full of stories that are INSANE if you look at them with reason, logic and common sense. Take for instance the story of Abraham and his soon Isaac. Supposedly "god" told Abraham to take his son out and sacrifice him!
HUH? If my next door neighbor came to me right now and said God told me to sacrifice my son, I'd dial 911 even though I hate to say so! Why would we not look at that story the same way? Or how about some virgin coming to me and saying, I'm pregnant and the Holy Spirit did it. Why should I not use the same judgment on a young girl 2010 years ago who claimed SHE was pregnant by the holy spirit. Or at least her husband did. Christianity isn't based on the bible. It is based on a DREAM and a MURDER!

Just ask yourself...why are there 1800 denominations of Christianity? Maybe because MEN can't come to a common agreement on ANY of the Bible? You people scare me! Telling others that the "law" of the Bible makes perfect sense. HELP! The first four commandments are a problem in and of themselves! What if someone doesn't believe them? After all, how many of us besides George Bush have actually sat down and had a conversation with our creator? Those four commandments if not followed would DAMAGE NO ONE! They wouldn't even damage GOD HIMSELF!

Oh and as for a law with death attached for two consenting adults having sex together? "Adultery" as it may be called, or I am sure you can find some more...I see a divorce maybe, but DEATH? COME ON!

I think we are SCREWED!

George wrote on Feb 27th, 2009 at 6:15pm:

Your experience neither surprises nor annoys me. By virtue of experience here's how I see it:

The substance here is "The Home Schooling Convention". Once again, in our efforts to deal with USA, Inc by exodus from their educational system and any other corrupt institution, we start our own "Systems" that run parallel to theirs, sprinkle a little "holy water" on them (if you get my metaphor) and go on to do the same things the nasties we've abandoned are doing. Those who home school, then, by submitting the administration of their home schools to the HS Convention, have merely started dancing with a "new (and hopefully improved)" partner, but to the same arbitrary jive. I hasten to point out that this is the method of most all Patriot Panhandling Perpetrators operating in disguises of freedom restoration for personal recognition and fiduciary gain. This is the antithesis of People's Awareness Coalition and it must be so portended! (And yes, the “!” at the end means I’m screaming.)

In the 80's, while pastoring a church in a little rural town south of Houston, we (wife and I) had a "one room school" for all grades in our facilities, only for members who attended and supported our church with their involvement and commitment to Kingdom principles. No tuition, buy your own books. And if the parents did not administrate their children's education, leaving them to us, we asked them to kindly withdraw their students and put them in another "System" that practices such dictatorship, of which there was abundance, between private and public indoctrination centers in and around town.

There we were successfully living out our values for a peaceful and obedient life on behalf of community, when a man and his wife in north Houston, with whom I had attended Cemetery (Seminary), asked me to assist him with home schooling his children. By the next school year, that little spark of a single request ignited a fire (metaphorically again) that spread in around our church to over 125 families, assisting them in their Biblical mandate to "train up their [own] children in the way that they should go."

Unlike the likes of established "governmental" type Home School Associations and their conventions, we simply offered to:

1. Administrate diagnostic testing per child to appraise their level of comprehension per subject discipline;
2. Prescribe accordingly the grade level of curriculum by subject for each individual;
3. Recommend philosophically safe curriculum suppliers from which to choose;
4. Order their choice of curricula at wholesale discounts since we had school accounts with suppliers;
5. Deliver the curricula and receive payment for the invoice sent us by the supplier without mark up;
6. Offer consultation and tutoring to individuals in need, without imposing administrative authority;
7. Organize and schedule field trips and sporting/PE activities for families to come together as community;
8. Keep grade records and prepare cumulative transcripts for each child in each family.

The only "charge" we extended was for the invoice cost of curricula and shipping charges to our facilities. We did not charge tuitions, but told them we would gratefully receive their contributions as they were able and willing. It's called Biblically sound "public service", something notably alien to the man-made governments of the world.

People came in from the streets and donated furnishings, cash, instruments, computers, et.al. Families contributed beyond what we could have ever expected from tuition and textbook mark ups. At the end of each school year we deposited all contributions left over and unused to the church general fund, typically in the thousands of dollars.

We had neither issues nor conflicts with families because we did not exercise authority over them, nor did we ever "tax" (charge) them for services and "benefits" rendered. We did not manage or regulate what we extended to them in services, and they did not manage or regulate us with regard to contributions made. The only battles were with state agencies wanting to come in and screw up what was working well without their licenses and certifications. They never prevailed because we treated them respectfully and refused to bow to their demands without their proof of jurisdiction, which they never returned to provide.

George, may agencies and authorities, conventions and congresses, dictators and fearmongers burn in hell. While I appreciate mass marketing efforts made to organizations, which can prove to be successful by virtue of volume, the way to do this is one on one. Slowly and surely, step by step, inch by inch, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little.

Having just this week been delivered from the servitude of managing a local Walmart Customer Service Department, thus having broken away from corporate entrapment, I have put my aged, skinny, cottage cheese looking glutus maximus on the line. I am just now laying groundwork to do as follows in the greater Houston area: Contact individual families, offering tutoring by contributions (if able but not contingent), offering curriculum recommendations (at wholesale invoice costs), offering The Red Amendment as a vital supplement to history and government disciplines for Jr and Sr High School students.

I have also barely begun, but intend to conquer the writing of a workbook supplement for The Red Amendment. The workbook has a trilogy of purpose: a) A home schoolers text workbook; b) for use at workshops and seminars (condensed version); and c) for use in ongoing community group studies whether in our homes, churches, or other suitable public facilities.

So you see, we may not really have that far to go. We just need to keep walking and seize each opportunity, laying aside the tired old conventional gods of this world methods, thinking outside the box.

As God said to Moses when he (Moses) attempted to turn down His (God's) offer of a career opportunity to be the President of the Deliverance of Israel Enterprise, "What's that in your hand [staff]...throw it down [snake]...now pick it up again [staff again]...any more questions or comments? Don't mess with raw universal power...it's not your place...just do what I say and no one except Pharaoh and his lesser gods will get hurt! Now go do the right thing."

Disclaimer: Obviously, I put a little of my own stink on that dialog between God and Moses, but I bet I'm essentially close. And for the sensitively pious, I meant no sacrilege; just send me $50 and I'll forgive you for taking offense. God's sense of humor is abundantly evident through observance of the people He created, yes? If sacrilege induces His wrath, then we’re all in trouble for the way we have chosen to live our lives under the gods many we have elected.

Thanks for your posting...you really pulled my chain.

Larry
(Boy! Is this a long one…LB, I should get, not 1, but 3 posting credits for this!) 

I think I like the quote from Thomas Paine...
And I am posting this for all you that want to venerate "states" or the  "United States" or whatever...

"My country is the WORLD and my religion is to do good."

Seems to me that you are trying to figure stuff out from Thomas Paine's book/pamphlet "Common Sense" so why can't I chose to figure stuff out from the Scriptures?

Paine got sucked into the Jacobean revolution which killed the Gospel in France and was a great victory for the Humanists, which Paine was a self-professed humanist.

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Sorry, Lexington... You have no clue how a common law system would work.

"Those people not governed by God will be ruled by tyrants." —William Penn

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Sounds a bit communistic. And let's let Ted Bundy define what "GOOD" is.